The Muddled East

[1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist]

On Sun, 27 Aug 2006 12:31:55 +1200, Mark Aitchison

Now people debate the moral right of "B" to accidentally kill "C" while
wiping "A" off the face of the planet. That is a good debate, but not
what I am talking about here. From a purely pragmatic "this is going to
save Israel" point of view, Israel is doing the world's worst job of
getting rid of Hezbollah! I mean: it would be like Britain in WW2
trying to fend off the German attack and their planes accidentally hit
Canada! Every aspect is incredibly flawed, to teh extent their enemy is
bigger, not smaller. And this is something everybody else knew would
happen. I just need somebody to say why this way of getting rid of the
enemy makes sense.

Look, I'm a little confused as to what you are trying to prove. How about
you tell us all what you think Israel sohuld have done.

What will eventually be done at a time appointed by Almighty God, is that
Israel will either conquer or dominate all the nations on this planet, till
only Israel remains, just as the Scripture prophesies.

Jeff...

[Jim]

Post by 1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist

On Sun, 27 Aug 2006 12:31:55 +1200, Mark Aitchison

Now people debate the moral right of "B" to accidentally kill "C" while
wiping "A" off the face of the planet. That is a good debate, but not
what I am talking about here. From a purely pragmatic "this is going to
save Israel" point of view, Israel is doing the world's worst job of
getting rid of Hezbollah! I mean: it would be like Britain in WW2
trying to fend off the German attack and their planes accidentally hit
Canada! Every aspect is incredibly flawed, to teh extent their enemy is
bigger, not smaller. And this is something everybody else knew would
happen. I just need somebody to say why this way of getting rid of the
enemy makes sense.

Look, I'm a little confused as to what you are trying to prove. How about
you tell us all what you think Israel sohuld have done.

What will eventually be done at a time appointed by Almighty God, is that
Israel will either conquer or dominate all the nations on this planet, till
only Israel remains, just as the Scripture prophesies.
Jeff...

Told you before, the State of Israel is secular. Go here www.nkuk.org and
learn something and don't be a buffoon all of your life.

Jim

[Pastor Dave]

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 19:03:33 GMT, "1st Century Apostolic

Post by 1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist
What will eventually be done at a time appointed by Almighty God, is that
Israel will either conquer or dominate all the nations on this planet, till
only Israel remains, just as the Scripture prophesies.

Nowhere does the Bible say that about national Israel.
But you go ahead and wait for that conquering Jesus,
just as they did and you go ahead and reject the real
Messiah, just as they did, because He didn't conquer
physically.
--
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass,
till all these things be fulfilled." - Matthew 24:34

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"For the word of God is sharper than any two edged sword."

Atheist - That interpretation is detrimental to Christianity.
Therefore, it must be correct.

[www.pulpitfire.org]

On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 00:56:06 GMT,

Post by Pastor Dave
Nowhere does the Bible say that about national Israel.
But you go ahead and wait for that conquering Jesus,
just as they did and you go ahead and reject the real
Messiah, just as they did, because He didn't conquer
physically.

Acts 1
6 ¶ When they therefore were come together, they asked of him,
saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to
Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the
seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

No mention here that they were wrong to *still* expect Christ to
restore the kingdom to Israel, just that it was not for them to know
the times or seasons that would occur.
--
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this finished work alone for salvation (1 Cor. 15:1-3;
Eph. 2:8-10).

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Funny Usenet Quotes:

What do you think fog is? Fog is essentially a dense cloud
of water droplets, or cloud, that is close to the ground, so
don't tell me, "clouds are in the sky"...--Pastor Dave
(***@4ax.com)

[Pastor Dave]

On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 22:05:49 -0500, www.pulpitfire.org

Post by www.pulpitfire.org
On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 00:56:06 GMT,

Post by Pastor Dave
Nowhere does the Bible say that about national Israel.
But you go ahead and wait for that conquering Jesus,
just as they did and you go ahead and reject the real
Messiah, just as they did, because He didn't conquer
physically.

Acts 1
6 ¶ When they therefore were come together, they asked of him,
saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to
Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the
seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
No mention here that they were wrong to *still* expect Christ to
restore the kingdom to Israel, just that it was not for them to know
the times or seasons that would occur.

No mention that Jesus said that it was about restoring
national Israel. But you go ahead and build your doctrine
on what was *NOT* said.
--
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass,
till all these things be fulfilled." - Matthew 24:34

O
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"For the word of God is sharper than any two edged sword."

"If then, these teachings [of a false prophet]
contradict the chief doctrine and article of Christ,
we should accord them neither with attention nor
acceptance though it were to snow miracles daily."
- Martin Luther

[www.pulpitfire.org]

On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 05:06:21 GMT,

Post by Pastor Dave

Post by www.pulpitfire.org
Acts 1
6 ¶ When they therefore were come together, they asked of him,
saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to
Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the
seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
No mention here that they were wrong to *still* expect Christ to
restore the kingdom to Israel, just that it was not for them to know
the times or seasons that would occur.

No mention that Jesus said that it was about restoring
national Israel. But you go ahead and build your doctrine
on what was *NOT* said.

--Restore "again" the kingdom to Israel. This is clearly a reference
to the kingdom which Israel had before. This is not merely a
reference to a "spiritual" Israel (although the new covenant of
Jeremiah 30-33 features the spiritual dimension of the kingdom for
national Israel), but a literal kingdom Israel had before, and which
they asked when He would restore "again". It doesn't have to be a
false, Gnostic dichotomy of either spiritual, or fleshly and carnal.
Christ is God in the flesh, and His kingdom on earth will be both
spiritual and physical, when He restores the kingdom to Israel for a
thousand years, on this earth, then reigns forever with the saints in
the new heavens and earth.
--
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this finished work alone for salvation (1 Cor. 15:1-3;
Eph. 2:8-10).

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Funny Usenet Quotes:

Now...How high was the highest mountain, DUMB ASS?...The
highest "mountain" was no more than 15 cubits high. --Pastor
Dave (***@4ax.com)

[1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist]

Post by www.pulpitfire.org
On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 05:06:21 GMT,

Post by Pastor Dave

Post by www.pulpitfire.org
Acts 1
6 ¶ When they therefore were come together, they asked of him,
saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to
Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the
seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
No mention here that they were wrong to *still* expect Christ to
restore the kingdom to Israel, just that it was not for them to know
the times or seasons that would occur.

No mention that Jesus said that it was about restoring
national Israel. But you go ahead and build your doctrine
on what was *NOT* said.

--Restore "again" the kingdom to Israel. This is clearly a reference
to the kingdom which Israel had before. This is not merely a
reference to a "spiritual" Israel (although the new covenant of
Jeremiah 30-33 features the spiritual dimension of the kingdom for
national Israel), but a literal kingdom Israel had before, and which
they asked when He would restore "again".

Correct!
God will restore the actual nation of Israel, once all those whom God is
calling from the Gentiles have all "come in".

Romans 11:25 "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this
mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part
is happened to *Israel,
[Strong's *Israel: 2) the family or descendants of Israel, the nation of
Israel]

until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all *Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out
of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.


28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as
touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.


30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained
mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they
also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy
upon all."

Amen!

[Timothy]

Post by 1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist

Post by www.pulpitfire.org
On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 05:06:21 GMT,

Post by Pastor Dave

Post by www.pulpitfire.org
Acts 1
6 ¶ When they therefore were come together, they asked of him,
saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to
Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the
seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
No mention here that they were wrong to *still* expect Christ to
restore the kingdom to Israel, just that it was not for them to know
the times or seasons that would occur.

No mention that Jesus said that it was about restoring
national Israel. But you go ahead and build your doctrine
on what was *NOT* said.

--Restore "again" the kingdom to Israel. This is clearly a reference
to the kingdom which Israel had before. This is not merely a
reference to a "spiritual" Israel (although the new covenant of
Jeremiah 30-33 features the spiritual dimension of the kingdom for
national Israel), but a literal kingdom Israel had before, and which
they asked when He would restore "again".

Correct!
God will restore the actual nation of Israel, once all those whom God is
calling from the Gentiles have all "come in".
Romans 11:25 "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of
this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness
in part is happened to *Israel,
[Strong's *Israel: 2) the family or descendants of Israel, the nation of
Israel]
until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all *Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as
touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they
also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy
upon all."
Amen!

But the nation of Israel *already* exists, so it has already been restored,
in the sense that it was re-established as a nation state.

Tim.

[Pastor Dave]

On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 07:58:21 GMT, "1st Century Apostolic
Traditionalist" <***@add.com> spake thusly:


Thank you all for showing me that good Christian love in

Post by 1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist

Post by www.pulpitfire.org
On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 05:06:21 GMT,

Post by Pastor Dave

Post by www.pulpitfire.org
Acts 1
6 ¶ When they therefore were come together, they asked of him,
saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to
Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the
seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
No mention here that they were wrong to *still* expect Christ to
restore the kingdom to Israel, just that it was not for them to know
the times or seasons that would occur.

No mention that Jesus said that it was about restoring
national Israel. But you go ahead and build your doctrine
on what was *NOT* said.

--Restore "again" the kingdom to Israel. This is clearly a reference
to the kingdom which Israel had before. This is not merely a
reference to a "spiritual" Israel (although the new covenant of
Jeremiah 30-33 features the spiritual dimension of the kingdom for
national Israel), but a literal kingdom Israel had before, and which
they asked when He would restore "again".

Correct!
God will restore the actual nation of Israel, once all those whom God is
calling from the Gentiles have all "come in".

No, sorry, He didn't. You are basing this doctrine on something
Jesus did *NOT* say. (: In fact, He said the exact opposite in
Luke 17:20-21. Nor did Paul say what you claim.

As to Romans 11:25-26, you are changing the wording from,
"AND SO", to "AND THEN".

And you are forgetting that Paul just finished telling people
how it is not national Israel that the covenant is with, by
comparing it to the bondwoman and the church to the free.
And he clearly says, "they are not all Israel, which are of
Israel". Now why would he say that, if being a Jew is what
mattered in his statement, "and so, all Israel shall be saved"?
How is it that he could be saying that all of national Israel
would be saved, if he just finished saying that "they are not
all Israel", referring to those born into national Israel?
That doesn't make any sense and Paul would be blatantly
contradicting himself. (: He also said that the bondwoman
shall not be heir with the free. So can you explain how it is
that what you believe could be true, given what else Paul
had to say? For your belief to be true, Paul would have
to be contradicting himself. (:

You are interpreting it as if it read, "and THEN all Israel
will be saved". But it doesn't say that and you are changing
the wording of the passage. (: In reality, it says, "and SO".

Now what does that word "so" mean? It simply means,
"in this manner". What manner?

Romans 11:25-26a

25) For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant
of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion,
that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness
of the Gentiles has come in.
26a) And so all Israel will be saved...

Now note that it says that blindness IN PART had happened
to Israel. Jews WERE being saved!

1) Some Jews are saved.
2) The fullness of the Gentiles comes in.
3) And SO (in this manner), all Israel is saved.

It does not say, "and THEN". It does not say, "and then God
goes back and saves all of national Israel". The word "then"
is not there! It says, "and so". I.e., "and in this manner".

Again, what manner? Well, it was what Paul just listed.

1) Some Jews are saved (blindness IN PART).
2) The fullness of the Gentiles comes in.
3) AND SO, all Israel is saved!
--
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass,
till all these things be fulfilled." - Matthew 24:34

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"For the word of God is sharper than any two edged sword."

http://www.unlimitedglory.org/evcha3.htm

[www.pulpitfire.org]

On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 14:42:11 GMT,

Post by Pastor Dave
Again, what manner? Well, it was what Paul just listed.
1) Some Jews are saved (blindness IN PART).
2) The fullness of the Gentiles comes in.
3) AND SO, all Israel is saved!

The Israel which will me saved when the fullness of the Gentiles has
come in, is not the church:

1) Because "Israel", throughout the entirety of chapter 11, refers to
national Israel, and is everywhere in stark contrast to the "fullness
of the Gentiles".

2) The "Israel" which will be saved when the fullness of the Gentiles
has come in, is the one that is an enemy of the gospel (11:28). This
is not referring to a group of people who are getting saved during the
time of the fullness of the Gentiles, but who are "enemies" concerning
the gospel. When you're an enemy of the gospel, you're not getting
saved, and this is the condition of this "Israel", during the time of
the fullness of the Gentiles.

3) It is for "your sakes" (Gentiles), that this "Israel", is an enemy
of the gospel (11:28b). If "Israel", here, were a reference to all
the church of both Jews and Gentiles who were getting saved, not only
would they not be the "enemies" of the gospel, but they would not
continue to be contrasted with the "your sakes" who are being saved,
in the very explanation of why they are enemies of the gospel.

4) There is nothing in the context of this chapter (or anywhere in the
Bible, for that matter), which indicates "Israel" is a spiritual
reference to the "church", or the time of the "fullness of the
Gentiles" with which it is constantly contrasted throughout the
chapter. Galatians 6:16 shows that, although Paul condemned Jewish
legalizers, he wished peace on those of national Israel ("Israel of
God") who were truly believers (cf. Rom. 9:6) as well as (kai = "and")
on those who walk according to the principle that circumcision avails
nothing.

5) The Israel which will be saved when the fullness of the Gentiles
has come in, is the elect Israel which God made irrevocable covenants,
gifts and promises to, and this is national Israel (Isa. 11:11-16;
45:17; 54:6-10; Jer 3:17-23; 30:17-22' 31:31-37; Jer
32:37-41; 33:24-26; Eze. 34:22-31; 37:21-28; 39:25-29; Eze.
40:1-48:35; Ho. 3:5; Joel 3:16-21; Am. 9:14,15; Mic. 7:15-20; Zep.
3:12-20; Zec. 10:6-12; Rom. 11:26; Rev. 7:4). This salvation will be
fulfilled, when the deliverer comes out of Zion (Rom. 11:26; Ps. 14:7;
Isa. 59:20).

6) The contention there can't still be Jews, Gentiles, or a national
Israel, since Christ made the church, ignores the plain, obvious
statement of Scripture: "Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor
to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God". --1 Corinthians 10:32.

7) There are 24 elders (not 12), and two sets of inscriptions in New
Jerusalem, one for the tribes of Israel (Israel), and one for the
apostles (representative of the church):

Re 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at
the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the
names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
Re 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them
the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

That both national Israel and the church are part of the same vine of
faith (Romans 11), doesn't do away with the fact there remain two
branches on the one vine.
--
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this finished work alone for salvation (1 Cor. 15:1-3;
Eph. 2:8-10).

• Daily devotionals • Community forum
• Bible questions and answers • Live chatting
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Funny Usenet Quotes:

Now...How high was the highest mountain, DUMB ASS?...The
highest "mountain" was no more than 15 cubits high. --Pastor
Dave (***@4ax.com)

[Pastor Dave]

On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 11:42:22 -0500, www.pulpitfire.org

Post by www.pulpitfire.org
On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 14:42:11 GMT,

Post by Pastor Dave
Again, what manner? Well, it was what Paul just listed.
1) Some Jews are saved (blindness IN PART).
2) The fullness of the Gentiles comes in.
3) AND SO, all Israel is saved!

The Israel which will me saved when the fullness of the Gentiles has

You are intentionally ignoring the fact that you are attempting
to change the phrase "and so", to "and then".

You snipped and completely ignored the points I made and so,
I see no reason to think that a discussion can be had with you.
Nor do I entertain someone attempting to refute one Scripture,
by posting another, thereby pitting Scripture against itself and
you have clearly proved that you know that you are attempting
to change the wording of Romans 11:25-26a.

I will repeat what I already posted and until you can respond to
it, specifically and directly, I will not discuss this with you.

So to repeat what you snipped...

As to Romans 11:25-26, you are changing the wording from,
"AND SO", to "AND THEN".

And you are forgetting that Paul just finished telling people
how it is not national Israel that the covenant is with, by
comparing it to the bondwoman and the church to the free.
And he clearly says, "they are not all Israel, which are of
Israel". Now why would he say that, if being a Jew is what
mattered in his statement, "and so, all Israel shall be saved"?
How is it that he could be saying that all of national Israel
would be saved, if he just finished saying that "they are not
all Israel", referring to those born into national Israel?
That doesn't make any sense and Paul would be blatantly
contradicting himself. (: He also said that the bondwoman
shall not be heir with the free. So can you explain how it is
that what you believe could be true, given what else Paul
had to say? For your belief to be true, Paul would have
to be contradicting himself. (:

You are interpreting it as if it read, "and THEN all Israel
will be saved". But it doesn't say that and you are changing
the wording of the passage. (: In reality, it says, "and SO".

Now what does that word "so" mean? It simply means,
"in this manner". What manner?

Romans 11:25-26a

25) For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant
of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion,
that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness
of the Gentiles has come in.
26a) And so all Israel will be saved...

Now note that it says that blindness IN PART had happened
to Israel. Jews WERE being saved!

1) Some Jews are saved.
2) The fullness of the Gentiles comes in.
3) And SO (in this manner), all Israel is saved.

It does not say, "and THEN". It does not say, "and then God
goes back and saves all of national Israel". The word "then"
is not there! It says, "and so". I.e., "and in this manner".

Again, what manner? Well, it was what Paul just listed.

1) Some Jews are saved (blindness IN PART).
2) The fullness of the Gentiles comes in.
3) AND SO, all Israel is saved!

So now the question remains, why do you seek to change
the wording of the passage from "and so", to "and then"?
--
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass,
till all these things be fulfilled." - Matthew 24:34

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"For the word of God is sharper than any two edged sword."

"The Evolutionary model says that it is not necessary
to assume the existence of anything, besides matter
and energy, to produce life. That proposition is
unscientific. We know perfectly well that if you
leave matter to itself, it does not organize itself
- in spite of all the efforts in recent years to
prove that it does." - Dr. Athur E. Wilder-Smith

[1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist]

Post by Pastor Dave
Now note that it says that blindness IN PART had happened
to Israel. Jews WERE being saved!
1) Some Jews are saved.
2) The fullness of the Gentiles comes in.
3) And SO (in this manner), all Israel is saved.

But the 'fullness of the Gentiles' has not yet come in, as people are still
turning to Christ to become Christians and being baptised to this
day.....you baptise some yourself.

Romans 11:25 "I want you to know about this truth from God, dear brothers,
so that you will not feel proud and start bragging. Yes, it is true that
some of the Jews have set themselves against the Gospel now, but this will
last only until all of you Gentiles have come to Christ--those of you who
will." (TLB)

Jeff...

[Pastor Dave]

On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 18:23:40 GMT, "1st Century Apostolic

Post by 1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist

Post by Pastor Dave
Now note that it says that blindness IN PART had happened
to Israel. Jews WERE being saved!
1) Some Jews are saved.
2) The fullness of the Gentiles comes in.
3) And SO (in this manner), all Israel is saved.

But the 'fullness of the Gentiles' has not yet come in,

Are you saying that you now recognize that Romans 11:25-26a
was not about God going back and saving all of national Israel,
after the fullness of the Gentiles came in?

Has your argument changed to one in which you acknowledge
that and now say that it still has yet to be fulfilled, because,
"the fullness of the Gentiles" has not finished coming in?

That's fine if you are, since it would mean that you now see
that Paul was *not* saying that all of national Israel was
going to be saved and you are submitting to the word of God,
as we *all* should be doing. :) My views on various things
have changed over time, as has everyone about this or that.
It is perfectly normal and a sign of integrity, when one throws
out a piece of ones doctrine, because they now see that it is
not supported by the word of God, as they thought it was.
We should all be so humble and willing. :)

I am asking, just trying to ascertain where you stand on this
now and not to criticize you, if you have changed your position.

So do I have this right? If so, then please tell me and we can
then move on to what you stated above, about whether or not
the fullness of the Gentiles has come in yet.

And if not, then we are still back where we started and you
have not answered to the point I made yet, about the fact
that it says, "and so" and should not be changed to, "and then",
as the Dispensationalists have been doing. And so, I'm not
going to allow anyone to divert the subject to something else.

I will wait for your answer. I do not wish to continue,
until I know where you now stand on this issue.
--
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass,
till all these things be fulfilled." - Matthew 24:34

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"For the word of God is sharper than any two edged sword."

In the beginning, God created...

And He did it in six days and said He did it
in six days (Exodus 20:11). Jesus believed
that and referenced it, in Matthew 19:3-8
and in other places. The original Hebrew
word for "day" ("yom"), is never used to mean
anything but a literal day in the Bible, when
a numerical adjective is present ("second, third,
etc.). Are we to believe that this is somehow
the one exception?

[Pastor Dave]

On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 18:23:40 GMT, "1st Century Apostolic

Post by 1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist

Post by Pastor Dave
Now note that it says that blindness IN PART had happened
to Israel. Jews WERE being saved!
1) Some Jews are saved.
2) The fullness of the Gentiles comes in.
3) And SO (in this manner), all Israel is saved.

But the 'fullness of the Gentiles' has not yet come in, as people are still
turning to Christ to become Christians and being baptised to this
day.....you baptise some yourself.
Romans 11:25 "I want you to know about this truth from God, dear brothers,
so that you will not feel proud and start bragging. Yes, it is true that
some of the Jews have set themselves against the Gospel now, but this will
last only until all of you Gentiles have come to Christ--those of you who
will." (TLB)

I will not continue this discussion in a thread that has a
subject line that is meant to attack me. I'm not accusing
you, I'm just saying that's what it is. So please see the
new thread I started, called "Romans 11:25-26a".
--
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass,
till all these things be fulfilled." - Matthew 24:34

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"For the word of God is sharper than any two edged sword."

When Christianity becomes religion,
it leaves the heart hungry.

[www.pulpitfire.org]

On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 19:34:32 GMT,

Post by Pastor Dave
I will not continue this discussion in a thread that has a
subject line that is meant to attack me. I'm not accusing
you, I'm just saying that's what it is. So please see the
new thread I started, called "Romans 11:25-26a".

To be honest, Dave, I didn't even notice the title of the thread until
you pointed it out. I thought it was the "Muddled East". What you
should have done, is just change the title when you responded to it.
--
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this finished work alone for salvation (1 Cor. 15:1-3;
Eph. 2:8-10).

• Daily devotionals • Community forum
• Bible questions and answers • Live chatting
• Free at www.pulpitfire.org


Funny Usenet Quotes:

Now...How high was the highest mountain, DUMB ASS?...The
highest "mountain" was no more than 15 cubits high. --Pastor
Dave (***@4ax.com)

[Pastor Dave]

On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 15:02:24 -0500, www.pulpitfire.org

Post by www.pulpitfire.org
On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 19:34:32 GMT,

Post by Pastor Dave
I will not continue this discussion in a thread that has a
subject line that is meant to attack me. I'm not accusing
you, I'm just saying that's what it is. So please see the
new thread I started, called "Romans 11:25-26a".

To be honest, Dave, I didn't even notice the title of the thread until
you pointed it out. I thought it was the "Muddled East". What you
should have done, is just change the title when you responded to it.

I set a new thread. And I wasn't accusing you. I believe you.
--
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass,
till all these things be fulfilled." - Matthew 24:34

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"For the word of God is sharper than any two edged sword."

"It is a poverty to decide that a child must die
so that you may live as you wish." - Mother Teresa

[www.pulpitfire.org]

On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 17:14:01 GMT,

Post by Pastor Dave
You are intentionally ignoring the fact that you are attempting
to change the phrase "and so", to "and then".

You assume "in this manner" means *only* in the manner of the fullness
of the Gentiles coming in. You are the one who ignores it is in the
manner of Israel being partly blinded *"until"* the fullness of the
Gentiles has come in (past tense) and in the manner "it was written".

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this
mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness
in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be
come in.
26 And so [in this manner] all Israel shall be saved: as it is
written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn
away ungodliness from Jacob:

In what manner?

1) In the manner of Israel (not the church or a "spiritual Israel")
being partly blinded until the full number of the Gentiles has come in
(past).

2) In the manner "it is written" of Israel. How was it written? It
was written that "There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and
shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob". Neither the church, nor
Israel was spiritually or physically delivered from anything in your
A.D. 70 "return of Christ", Dave. "In this manner" is the manner in
which it was written, that is, that Christ will come and turn
ungodliness away from "Jacob", which is "Israel", which is neither the
"church", nor the "fullness of the Gentiles".

Neither "And so", nor "in this manner" presents a problem to the
interpretation this is "Israel", not the church.
--
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this finished work alone for salvation (1 Cor. 15:1-3;
Eph. 2:8-10).

• Daily devotionals • Community forum
• Bible questions and answers • Live chatting
• Free at www.pulpitfire.org

Funny Usenet Quotes:

We should think ourselves lucky, the pressure on the server
when an email announcement is sent will be pretty hairy.
-- Jeff Gaines (***@news.individual.net)

[Pastor Dave]

On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 14:13:05 -0500, www.pulpitfire.org

Post by www.pulpitfire.org
On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 17:14:01 GMT,

Post by Pastor Dave
You are intentionally ignoring the fact that you are attempting
to change the phrase "and so", to "and then".

You assume "in this manner" means *only* in the manner of the fullness
of the Gentiles coming in.

I have assumed nothing. You however, are dodging the issue.

As I said, I'm not going to keep this up with you. The truth is,
you just made up another scenario on the fly, to try to cover
yourself, so you can continue to believe what you want to and
then proceeded to attack again. Therefore, I have nothing to
say to you about it. Go play your games with someone else.
--
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass,
till all these things be fulfilled." - Matthew 24:34

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"For the word of God is sharper than any two edged sword."

The Last Days were in the first century:

James 5:8-9

8) Be YE also patient; establish YOUR hearts:
for the coming of the Lord DRAWETH NIGH.
9) Grudge not one against another, brethren,
lest YE be condemned: behold, the judge
STANDETH BEFORE THE DOOR.

[www.pulpitfire.org]

On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 19:36:17 GMT,

Post by Pastor Dave
As I said, I'm not going to keep this up with you.

Translation: I'm not going to allow my ass to get kicked again in
public.
--
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this finished work alone for salvation (1 Cor. 15:1-3;
Eph. 2:8-10).

• Daily devotionals • Community forum
• Bible questions and answers • Live chatting
• Free at www.pulpitfire.org

Funny Usenet Quotes:

We should think ourselves lucky, the pressure on the server
when an email announcement is sent will be pretty hairy.
-- Jeff Gaines (***@news.individual.net)

[1st Century Apostolic Traditionalist]

Post by www.pulpitfire.org
On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 19:36:17 GMT,

Post by Pastor Dave
As I said, I'm not going to keep this up with you.

Translation: I'm not going to allow my ass to get kicked again in
public.

But Dave you heartily kick it yourself in public... every time you make your
muddled and profoundly unscriptural statements.

Romans 11:25 "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this
mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part
is happened to *Israel........

[Strong's *Israel: 2) the family or descendants of Israel, the nation of
Israel]

..........until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all *Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out
of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as
touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained
mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they
also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy
upon all."
Amen!

And BTW if you refuse to observe the last supper as Christ has commanded all
his followers to so do, then you have no spiritual life in you.

John 6: 57 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the
Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I
will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in
him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that
eateth me, even he shall live by me."

Thus we see plainly that you will deny yourself a place in Christ's kingdom
if you carry on with this silly charade that Christ has returned and the
saints are now reigning over the nations "with a rod of iron" as he promised
they would.

For your beliefs deny you the saving sacrament of breaking bread and
drinking wine as he commanded, thus it forfeits you "dwelling in Christ".

Jeff...
1 Cor. 11:2 "Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things,
and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you."

[www.pulpitfire.org]

On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 17:14:01 GMT,

Post by Pastor Dave
I will repeat what I already posted and until you can respond to
it, specifically and directly, I will not discuss this with you.

...Even though you did not specifically and directly respond to every
point in my post. Of course, *you* probably used *your* *discretion*
to discern that wasn't necessary, because *your* point eliminates the
need for that. Meanwhile, no one else could possibly come up with a
point that would eliminate the need to answer every line and point
*you* write <snicker>.

Or are you trying to set the stage to cut and run in the event it
becomes evident you are again getting your ass kicked <snicker>?
--
Christ died for our sins, and God raised Him from the dead.
Rely on this finished work alone for salvation (1 Cor. 15:1-3;
Eph. 2:8-10).

• Daily devotionals • Community forum
• Bible questions and answers • Live chatting
• Free at www.pulpitfire.org


Funny Usenet Quotes:

Now...How high was the highest mountain, DUMB ASS?...The
highest "mountain" was no more than 15 cubits high. --Pastor
Dave (***@4ax.com)

[Pastor Dave]

On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 01:05:39 -0500, www.pulpitfire.org

Post by www.pulpitfire.org
On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 05:06:21 GMT,

Post by Pastor Dave

Post by www.pulpitfire.org
Acts 1
6 ¶ When they therefore were come together, they asked of him,
saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to
Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the
seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
No mention here that they were wrong to *still* expect Christ to
restore the kingdom to Israel, just that it was not for them to know
the times or seasons that would occur.

No mention that Jesus said that it was about restoring
national Israel. But you go ahead and build your doctrine
on what was *NOT* said.

--Restore "again" the kingdom to Israel.

Jesus did not say that He was going to set up a physical kingdom.
In fact, to do so would contradict what He said in Luke 17:20-21.

And the "Israel of God" is the church anyway.
--
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass,
till all these things be fulfilled." - Matthew 24:34

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"For the word of God is sharper than any two edged sword."

www.answersingenesis.org